History Of Nursery Rhymes | Mama Lisa's World Blog

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Are There “Correct” Versions of Traditional Nursery Rhymes and Songs?

Thursday, May 28th, 2009

People often write to us looking for the correct version of a song or rhyme. Monique Palomares, who I work with on the songs and rhymes that are posted on Mama Lisa’s World wrote the following about this topic…

Until mass media devices were available, songs were mostly passed down through generations by oral transmission. Some of them are known to have authors because we can track them back to a written document mentioning the authors’ names and how they wrote them. But most traditional songs are anonymous. Therefore, there were no set versions. People would adapt the songs to their own surroundings or would forget a word and sing another, swap verses or lines or add a new one. This is why there isn’t such a thing as “THE TRUE version” or “THE CORRECT lyrics”… when talking about anonymous traditional songs.

What seems to be for each of us “the true, genuine, correct…lyrics ” is the version we learned, generally when we were a child. So it’s “always” been that way for us in our heads.

Unless a song has an author who left a copy of his work, when a song/rhyme has variants, there is only a” MOST KNOWN/SPREAD version”. Some songs have tens of versions… so imagine all the nursery rhymes or finger plays that every mom sings to her baby, multiplied by all the mothers out there, multiplied by all the times they may sing them differently according to their sense of humor, the babies’ sense of humor…! (Check out the many versions of Ride Ride Ranke and you’ll see what I mean!)

Monique Palomares has translated most of Mama Lisa’s World into French and Spanish. You can see her translations on Mama Lisa’s World en français and Mama Lisa’s World en español.

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Posted in Children's Songs, Countries & Cultures, Folk Songs, History of Nursery Rhymes, History of Nursery Rhymes, Languages, Lullabies, Mama Lisa, Nursery Rhymes, Questions, Variations of Nursery Rhymes | No Comments »

Swan – A Mother Goose Nursery Rhyme

Wednesday, April 11th, 2007

The illustration below is from The Real Mother Goose which was illustrated by Blanche Fisher Wright and published in 1916. The whole book is available to download for free from Project Gutenberg. Just click the link on the book title to download it. I’ll be posting much of it on my Nursery Rhyme site over time – with French and Spanish translations. I’ll also post some here from time to time – along with some other public domain rhymes.

SWAN

Swan, swan, over the sea;
Swim, swan, swim!
Swan, swan, back again;
Well swum, swan!

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Posted in Australia, Canada, Countries & Cultures, English, English Nursery Rhymes, Great Britain, History of Nursery Rhymes, Languages, Mother Goose, Nursery Rhymes, Nursery Rhymes About Animals, Rhymes about Swans, Rhymes by Theme, Swan, USA | No Comments »

Recipe for “Roly-Poly Jam Pudding” by Mrs. Beeton (1836 – 1865)

Tuesday, December 20th, 2005

A while back I wrote about the meaning of Roly-Poly. (As in Roly-Poly, or Georgie Porgie, pudding and pie.)

One definition of Roly-Poly is a type of pudding rolled in a pie crust, and traditionally boiled or steamed. Below is a very old recipe for Roly-Poly Jam Pudding by Mrs. Beeton. Mrs. Beeton lived during the Victorian era. She penned a book entitled The Book of Household Management around 1859, which is where this recipe is from. It was one of the first modern types of cookbooks published. The recipe itself seems somewhat old fashioned to me, but then again, I’ve never cooked with suet before!

ROLY-POLY JAM PUDDING By Mrs. Beeton

INGREDIENTS

3/4 lb of suet-crust (see recipe below)
3/4 lb. of any kind of jam

Make a nice light suet-crust by recipe (below), and roll it
out to the thickness of about 1/2 inch. Spread the jam equally over it,
leaving a small margin of paste (crust) without any, where the pudding joins.

Roll it up, fasten the ends securely, and tie it in a floured cloth; put
the pudding into boiling water, and boil for 2 hours. Mincemeat or
marmalade may be substituted for the jam, and makes excellent puddings.

Time = 2 hours.

Average cost (in the Victorian era) = 9d. (d. stands for ‘denarius’ which was a Roman silver coin – it was also used as the name for the English silver penny.)

Sufficient for 5 or 6 persons.

Seasonable – Suitable for winter puddings, when fresh fruit is not obtainable.

SUET CRUST, for Pies or Puddings.

INGREDIENTS

To every lb. of flour allow 5 or 6 oz. of beef suet
(Suet is the hard fat around the kidneys or loins in beef or mutton.)
1/2 pint of water.

Free the suet from skin and shreds; chop it extremely fine, and
rub it well into the flour; work the whole to a smooth paste with the
above proportion of water; roll it out, and it is ready for use. This
crust is quite rich enough for ordinary purposes, but when a better one
is desired, use from 1/2 to 3/4 lb. of suet to every lb. of flour. Some
cooks, for rich crusts, pound the suet in a mortar, with a small quantity of butter. It should then be laid on the paste in small pieces,
the same as for puff-crust, and will be found exceedingly nice for hot
tarts. 5 oz. of suet to every lb. of flour will make a very good crust;
and even 1/4 lb. will answer very well for children, or where the crust
is wanted very plain.

Average cost, 5d. per lb.

Many thanks to Peter Rowland for inspiring me to learn more about Roly-Poly Pudding.

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Posted in Countries & Cultures, Desserts, English, English Nursery Rhymes, Georgie Porgie, Great Britain, History of Nursery Rhymes, Nursery Rhymes, Recipes of the World, Roly-Poly Jam Pudding | 2 Comments »

The English Nursery Rhymes “Barney Bodkin Broke His Nose” (with an mp3 recording) and “Hyder Iddle Diddle Dell”

Wednesday, October 19th, 2005

Here’s an old Mother Goose rhyme that’s known to have been around since 1812…

Barney Bodkin Broke His Nose

Barney Bodkin broke his nose,
Without feet we can’t have toes;
Crazy folks are always mad,
Want of money makes us sad.

Here is an MP3 of this Nursery Rhyme

Nursery rhymes have come from various sources, including other songs that were around in the past. Barney Bodkin Broke His Nose is the first verse in a song called A Bundle of Truths, recorded on paper by Francis Douce in 1812. Here’s the next verse, which is fairly nonsensical…

A farthing rushlight’s* very small,
Doctors wear large bushy wigs.
One that’s dumb can never bawl,
Prickled pork is made of pigs.

*”Farthing rushlight” is the term for a cheap candle

Here’s the refrain from the same song, which is close to another nursery rhyme called Hyder Iddle Diddle Dell…

Right fol de riddle del
A yard of pudding’s not an ell*
Not forgetting didderum hi,
A taylor’s goose can never fly**.

*An “ell” is 45 inches, tailors used it to measure cloth
**A taylor’s goose can never fly because it’s an iron

The nursery rhyme version is…

Hyder Iddle Diddle Dell

Hyder iddle diddle dell
A yard of pudding’s not an ell
Not forgetting tweedle-dye,
A tailor’s goose can never fly.

It’s interesting to see where nursery rhymes come from. In this case two seemingly separate rhymes originated in the one song A Bundle of Truths.

Many thanks to Jason Pomerantz for recording this rhyme for Mama Lisa’s World.

Come visit Mama Lisa’s House of Nursery Rhymes for more Mother Goose rhymes!

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Posted in Barney Bodkin Broke His Nose, Countries & Cultures, English, English Nursery Rhymes, Great Britain, History of Nursery Rhymes, History of Nursery Rhymes, Languages, MP3 Recordings, Nursery Rhymes, Podcasts, Recordings of Nursery Rhymes | 3 Comments »

Connection between Irish folk song “I’ll Tell Me Ma” and Scottish rhyme “I’ll Tell Ma Mither”

Sunday, October 9th, 2005

Several days ago, I asked if anyone knew the origin of I’ll Tell Ma Mither.

Yesterday, Dani pointed out that it’s very similar to the Irish folksong I’ll Tell Me Ma.

Here’s Dani’s letter:

I can’t tell you much about the I’ll Tell My Mither rhyme, but it does have several lines in common with the folk song I’ll Tell my Ma, which I gather is from the Belfast area:

I’ll Tell My Ma

I’ll tell my ma when I go home
the boys won’t leave the girls alone!
They pulled my hair, and they stole my comb
(but that’s all right, ’til I go home).

It’s one of my favourites. :-)

For complete lyrics and a sound clip

Also, the Rankin Family did a very nice version a while back, I believe.

Hope this was of use! Dani

Thanks Dani!

For other Irish songs visit Mama Lisa’s Ireland Page. For Scottish songs and nursery rhymes visit Mama Lisa’s U.K. Page.

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Posted in Children's Songs, Folk Songs, History of Nursery Rhymes, I'll Tell Ma Mither, I'll Tell Me Ma, Irish Folk Songs, Irish Kids Songs, N. Ireland, Scotland, Scottish Children's Songs, Scottish Nursery Rhymes, Songs About Boys and Girls, Songs by Theme | 2 Comments »

“A Frog He Would A-wooing Go”, “Georgie Porgie” and the Meaning of Roly-Poly

Friday, October 7th, 2005

A Connection Between A Frog He Would A-wooing Go and Georgie Porgie, Which Involves the Meaning of Rowley Powley.

I’ve always been fond of the song A Frog He Would A-wooing Go, which seems to have originated in Scotland in the sixteenth century. There are countless variations of this old favorite – most Americans know it as Froggy Went A Courtin’, He Did Ride, which has been recorded by Elvis Presley and Bob Dylan, among others.

Here’s the best known British version:

A Frog He Would A-wooing Go

A frog he would a-wooing go,
Heigh ho! says Rowley,
A frog he would a-wooing go,
Whether his mother would let him or no.
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley.

So off he set with his opera hat,
Heigh ho! says Rowley,
So off he set with his opera hat,
And on the road he met with a rat,
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley.

Pray, Mr. Rat will you go with me?
Heigh ho! says Rowley,
Pray, Mr. Rat will you go with me,
Kind Mrs. Mousey for to see…
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley.

They came to the door of Mousey’s hall,
Heigh ho! says Rowley,
They gave a loud knock, and they gave a loud call.
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley.

Pray, Mrs. Mouse are you within?
Heigh ho! says Rowley,
Oh yes, kind sirs, I’m sitting to spin.
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley.

Pray, Mrs. Mouse will you give us some beer?
Heigh ho! says Rowley,
For Froggy and I are fond of good cheer.
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley.

Pray, Mr. Frog will you give us a song?
Heigh ho! says Rowley,
Let it be something that’s not very long.
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley.

Indeed, Mrs. Mouse, replied Mr. Frog,
Heigh ho! says Rowley,
A cold has made me as hoarse as a dog.
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley.

Since you have a cold, Mr. Frog, Mousey said,
Heigh ho! says Rowley,
I’ll sing you a song that I’ve just made.
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley.

But while they were all a-merry-making
Heigh ho! says Rowley,
A cat and her kittens came tumbling in.
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley.

The cat she seized the rat by the crown,
Heigh ho! says Rowley,
The kittens they pulled the little mouse down.
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley.

This put Mr. Frog in a terrible fright,
Heigh ho! says Rowley.
He took up his hat and he wished them goodnight.
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley.

But as Froggy was crossing over a brook,
Heigh ho! says Rowley.
A lily white duck came and gobbled him up.
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley.

So there was the end of one, two, three,
Heigh ho! says Rowley.
The rat,
the mouse, and the little froggy.
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley.

Monique, my colleague at Mama Lisa’s World en français, has been translating many old songs into French. When she came to A Frog He Would A-wooing Go she was unsure what to make of “rowley powley” and she asked me what it meant. Hum, good question I thought. I really didn’t know.

When I thought about it, at first it seemed “With a Rowley, powley, gammon, and spinach” was just a nonsense call or phrase. Was that all there was to it? I decided to investigate.

So, I looked up “gammon” which is also not a common word, at least not in the States. I found out it refers to meat from the hind leg of a pig, often cured. It seems this “nonsense phrase” is talking about food.

Next I took out my Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes by Iona and Peter Opie to see if they refer to “rowley powley”. That’s usually the first book I’ll refer to when there’s a question about a nursery rhyme. Here’s what it had to say:

A Notes and Queries correspondent remembered seeing ‘rowley powley’ given as a name for a plump fowl.

This fit in with the food theme. Next I wanted to see if I could verify what they said. I typed “rowley powley” into Google and found a surprising connection to another popular rhyme: Georgie Porgie

Georgie Porgie, pudding and pie,
Kissed the girls and made them cry;
When the boys came out to play,
Georgie Porgie ran away.

It turns out Georgie Porgie was originally called Rowley Powley. (The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes confirms this.)

The rhyme was first recited as…

Rowley Powley, pudding and pie,
Kissed the girls and made them cry;
When the girls begin to cry,
Rowley Powley runs away.

Interesting… I decided to go back to Google and type in “rowley powley” again. This time I found the quote…

“Here’s your large Rowley Powlies, no more than Six-pence a Peck . . . Rowley Powley, jolly Pease.” -Cries of London (1784)

The quote was on a site called Food Reference Website under food quotes for “peas”. I wrote to James T. Ehler, the publisher of the site, to see if he knew anything more about “rowley powley”. He sent me back the definitions given in the Oxford English Dictionary, pointing out that the quote on his website refers to peas. Peas could also fit into a food theme.

In the definitions of “rowley powley” in the OED I noticed another way to spell it, “roly-poly”, which is in use in modern English. That changed the way I thought of the phrase.

I had thought it rhymed with towel. But seeing it spelled as “roly-poly”, would make it rhyme with roll or bowl. This changes things a little since “roly-poly” can mean short and plump, usually referring to a child. I believe Georgie Porgie can also mean the same thing in modern day usage.

The OED is amazingly comprehensive! Here are some other definitions for “rowley powley” it has, which are interesting in the context of the song A Frog He Would A-wooing Go and the nursery rhyme Georgie Porgie:

1) A rascal (mentioned in the year 1601) – could work for Georgie Porgie – since he’s kissing the girls and running away.
2) The name of different games based on rolling a ball (referred to in 1713) – could work for Georgie Porgie, only because it’s a nursery rhyme and it’s based on playing. I find this interpretation unlikely.
3) Short and pudgy, usually referring to kids. This could fit Georgie Porgie too, seeing as the current day usage of both “roly-poly” and “Georgie Porgie” can refer to a plump child.
4) A funny name for a pea – again, it could work for A Frog He Would A-wooing Go since it’s in the context of other foods.
5) “A kind of pudding, consisting of a sheet of pastry covered with jam or preserves, formed into a roll and boiled or steamed.” (Quoted directly from the OED, they found it mentioned this way in print as early as 1841). This definition obviously fits “Georgie Porgie, pudding and pie” and here we go with a food reference again, so it would fit in with A Frog He Would A-wooing Go too.

Starting with A Frog He Would A-wooing Go, let’s go back to the original context… “With a Rowley, powley, gammon, and spinach”. We’re left with the following choices:

1) A plump fowl
2) Peas
3) The pudding dish

And for Georgie Porgie, we’re left with the following possibilities:

1) A rascal
2) A short, plump kid
3) A kind of pudding

I’m not sure how we can determine which definition to use for A Frog He Would A-wooing Go, but for Georgie Porgie, “rowley, powley” could well be playing on words and mean all of the above.

In the end, as with so many nursery rhyme mysteries, we can only surmise. Maybe someday someone will invent a time machine and we’ll be able to travel back in time and find out for sure!

Many thanks to James T. Ehler from the Food Reference Site and Jason Pomerantz for help with this investigation.

Here’s a recipe for Roly-Poly Jam Pudding.

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Posted in A Frog He Would A-wooing Go, A Frog He Would A-wooing Go, Animal Songs, British Children's Songs, English, English Nursery Rhymes, Frog Songs, Georgie Porgie, History of Nursery Rhymes, History of Nursery Rhymes, Mouse Songs, Scottish Children's Songs, Songs by Theme | 11 Comments »

Where is Mother Goose from? Is she from France? From Germany?

Saturday, October 1st, 2005

As mentioned in my previous blog entry…

“Some people believe Berthe de Laon (726 to 783), the Mother of Charlemagne, was Mother Goose. She became queen of the Francs when she married Pépin le Bref . One of her feet was bigger than the other, and so she was known by her subjects as ‘Berthe au grand pied’ (in English ‘big-footed Bertha’). Berthe may also be the original model for la ‘Reine Pédauque’ (in English ‘Queen Goosefoot’), a figure of French legend, whose statue is found in front of some churches in France.”

As I read more, I have found that some people believe Mother Goose was another Berthe. This Berthe married King Robert II of France (Robert the Pious 970-1013), despite the fact that they were cousins. Pope Gregory V excommunicated Robert II for this. I keep coming across references in French about the couple giving birth to a goose. Perhaps they gave birth to a deformed child that people thought looked a little like a goose?

Meanwhile, if we switch to mythology, we find other instances of Bertha, often associated with children. Bertha is the Norse goddess of spinning. In German mythology, Bertha, is also known as Berchta. I found different references to Berchta as being: the goddess of growing things, the guardian of the souls of unborn babies, a fertility goddess. Sometimes she has a goosefoot and other times she has a golden spindle. At times she’s called Berta, dressed in white, who soothes babies while their caretakers sleep.

To confuse matters ever further, the goddess Bertha is also sometimes called Fru Gode and, it’s possible that she’s connected with Fru Gosen, which might be the German name for Mother Goose. *

Could the truth be that Mother Goose is a combination of one of the Queen Bertha’s of France, combined with the borrowed mythology of the goddess Bertha?

This could explain the origin of the legendary French figure, Goose-footed Bertha, who is usually portrayed as having children surrounding her, listening to her stories while she’s at the spinning wheel. Her foot got flattened from working the treadle for years.

*I originally read this in several places. Since then I’ve read that “Fru Gosen” may have been a mistranslation into English. Or it’s possible that it’s an old figure who didn’t make into into current folklore. If any knows more about Fru Gosen, please write me. Thanks! Lisa – UPDATE: Since then I’ve checked with several people from Germany, none of them were familiar with a German Mother Goose figure.

Many thanks to Monique for helping with the French connections. Monique is my partner in Mother Goosedom at Mama Lisa’s World en français.

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Posted in Countries & Cultures, English, English Nursery Rhymes, France, Germany, Great Britain, History of Nursery Rhymes, History of Nursery Rhymes, Languages, Mother Goose, Nursery Rhymes, The History of Mother Goose | 2 Comments »

Who was Mother Goose?

Friday, September 30th, 2005

Everyone knows Mother Goose, the jolly woman of legend who represents the beloved collection of English nursery rhymes. But who was Mother Goose really? Where did the name originate? Here are three of the best known theories…

The French Connection – Was Mother Goose Really French?

Some people believe Berthe de Laon (726 to 783), the Mother of Charlemagne, was Mother Goose. She became queen of the Francs when she married Pépin le Bref . One of her feet was bigger than the other, and so she was known by her subjects as “Berthe au grand pied” (in English “big-footed Bertha”). Berthe may also be the original model for la “Reine Pédauque” (in English “Queen Goosefoot”), a figure of French legend, whose statue is found in front of some churches in France.

This could be the origin of the legendary French figure, Goose-footed Bertha, who always has children around her listening to her stories.

In 1650, the first published mention of the name Mother Goose, is in French, in Loret’s La Muse Historique. The book contains the line “comme un conte de la Mère Oye” (in English “like a Mother Goose story”).

In 1697, Charles Perrault published Les Contes de ma Mère l’Oye, (in English “The Stories of Mother Goose”). Unlike later English language usage, here Mother Goose was a teller of stories, not a reciter of nursery rhymes. The book contains 8 fairy tales, including Little Red Riding Hood.

The American Connection – Could Mother Goose Have Been American?

Eliza Goose of Boston (probably short for Vertigoose or Vergoose) was the mother-in-law of a printer named Thomas Fleet. The story says that she often told nursery rhymes to her grandchildren. Supposedly, her son-in-law printed a book entitled Songs of the Nursery; or, Mother Goose’s Melodies for Children in 1719. There’s no proof that this book actually existed, except for the word of 3 people in the 19th century.

Did Mother Goose Actually Come from England?

Martha Gooch was a nursemaid who lived in Sussex in the early 1700’s. When people overheard her singing rhymes to the children in her care, she struck them as a bit odd. They began to tease her by calling her Mother Goose after Queen Goosefoot, the mother of Charlemagne.

Supposedly, one of Gooch’s employers overheard her reciting rhymes. He wrote them down and made a book of them in 1712 called Ye Melodious Rhymes of Mother Goose. This book however has never been proven to have existed.

The first printed edition of nursery rhymes collected under the name Mother Goose (as opposed to the fairy tales of Perrault, collected under the same name in 1697) was called Mother Goose’s Melody and was printed around 1765 in England.

I guess we’ll never know for sure who Mother Goose really was, but it’s fun to try to find out!

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Posted in Countries & Cultures, English, English Nursery Rhymes, Great Britain, History of Nursery Rhymes, History of Nursery Rhymes, Languages, Mother Goose, Nursery Rhymes, The History of Mother Goose | 1 Comment »

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Posts

Are There “Correct” Versions of Traditional Nursery Rhymes and Songs?

Swan – A Mother Goose Nursery Rhyme

Recipe for “Roly-Poly Jam Pudding” by Mrs. Beeton (1836 – 1865)

The English Nursery Rhymes “Barney Bodkin Broke His Nose” (with an mp3 recording) and “Hyder Iddle Diddle Dell”

Connection between Irish folk song “I’ll Tell Me Ma” and Scottish rhyme “I’ll Tell Ma Mither”

“A Frog He Would A-wooing Go”, “Georgie Porgie” and the Meaning of Roly-Poly

Where is Mother Goose from? Is she from France? From Germany?

Who was Mother Goose?